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E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Rang..

 
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Denton

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Since: Feb 16, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:40 pm
Post subject: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger?
Archived from groups: alt>autos>ford (more info?)

Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus and
2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
Any forseeable problems? thanks....

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Scott

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Since: Jul 28, 2007
Posts: 41



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:24 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Denton" wrote in message

> Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus and
> 2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
> Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
> Any forseeable problems? thanks....

You realize your mileage will be less with E85 right?

I just wonder why you would go to the expense of this?

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Denton

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Since: Feb 16, 2006
Posts: 4



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:50 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol blend be
used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel milage
than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power, and it is
supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.

"Scott" wrote in message

>
> "Denton" wrote in message
>
>> Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus
>> and 2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
>> Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
>> Any forseeable problems? thanks....
>
> You realize your mileage will be less with E85 right?
>
> I just wonder why you would go to the expense of this?
>
>
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Shawn

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Since: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 118



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:23 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Denton" wrote in message
> Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus and 2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
> Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
> Any forseeable problems? thanks....

What is "E85" ?
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Jeff

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Since: May 21, 2007
Posts: 965



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:56 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Shawn wrote:
> "Denton" wrote in message
>> Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus and 2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
>> Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
>> Any forseeable problems? thanks....
>
> What is "E85" ?

A gasoline/ethanol mixture containing 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. The
number after the E is the percent of the mixture that is ethanol. So E10
is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. Ethanol, of course, is the type of
alcohol in beer and fun drinks.

Jeff
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agenthandyman

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Since: Dec 31, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:34 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jan 3, 11:54 pm, "CJB" wrote:
> "Jeff" wrote in message
>
>
>
> > Denton wrote:
> >> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol blend
> >> be used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel
> >> milage than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power,
> >> and it is supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.
>
> > It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
> > actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do), you
> > won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much. The
> > only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
> > busy highway.
>
> I'm not sure too many people understand the whole point of the "more power"
> potential of E-85.  E-85 is something in the neighborhood of 105 octane,
> iirc.  The only way to take advantage of high octane like that is to have a
> higher compression engine.  The problem there is that none are on the market
> today.  If someone built a high compression engine, then it wouldn't be
> backward compatible with standard gasoline.  There is no real power
> advantage that I know of in any engine in production today because they just
> don't have the high compression to take advantage of the higher octane of
> E-85.
>
> Long story short, while E-85 does have the POTENTIAL to produce more power,
> it will not unless engines are specifically designed to take advantage of
> it.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that your current engine will
> benefit power-wise from E-85.  The opposite is true because E-85 burns with
> fewer BTUs.
>
> CJB

I agree with all the points AGAINST E85... Not only does its
production cause as much, or more harm as hydrogen does to the
environment, but It can actually be more harmful to your engine than
traditional gasoline, due to it's higher octane rating. With most
modern engines being largely aluminum... the higher temps can actually
cause issues with seal degredation and metal fatigue. The best choice
for an alternative fuel, in my opinion, would be bio-diesel. Granted,
bio-diesel production requires alcohols, but in much lower quanties
and it is much more engine and environmentally friendly.
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Jeff

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Since: May 21, 2007
Posts: 965



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Denton wrote:
> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol blend be
> used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel milage
> than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power, and it is
> supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.

It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do), you
won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much. The
only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
busy highway.

The problem with the ethanol blend is that it takes almost as much
energy to make a gallon of ethanol as there is in a gallon of ethanol.
Plus, all the corn that can be used for other things, like food, is used up.

The law requiring ethanol blends (probably E10 or E5) is a stupid law, IMHO.

Jeff
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Jeff

External


Since: May 21, 2007
Posts: 965



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Scott wrote:
> "Denton" wrote in message
>
>> Hi all....am giving some serious thoughts to converting our 2006 Focus and
>> 2007 4 banger Ranger over to E85 via conversion kits.
>> Both vehicles have less than 12,000 miles on the clocks.
>> Any forseeable problems? thanks....
>
> You realize your mileage will be less with E85 right?
>
> I just wonder why you would go to the expense of this?

In some areas, E85 is significantly cheaper than gasoline. However,
there is not much of an environmental gain in using E85, just as using
hydrogen is harmful, because of all the energy it takes to make hydrogen
and all the CO2 that ends up in the air.

Jeff
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CJB

External


Since: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 83



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:55 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jeff" wrote in message

> Denton wrote:
>> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol blend
>> be used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel
>> milage than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power,
>> and it is supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.
>
> It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
> actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do), you
> won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much. The
> only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
> busy highway.


I'm not sure too many people understand the whole point of the "more power"
potential of E-85. E-85 is something in the neighborhood of 105 octane,
iirc. The only way to take advantage of high octane like that is to have a
higher compression engine. The problem there is that none are on the market
today. If someone built a high compression engine, then it wouldn't be
backward compatible with standard gasoline. There is no real power
advantage that I know of in any engine in production today because they just
don't have the high compression to take advantage of the higher octane of
E-85.

Long story short, while E-85 does have the POTENTIAL to produce more power,
it will not unless engines are specifically designed to take advantage of
it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your current engine will
benefit power-wise from E-85. The opposite is true because E-85 burns with
fewer BTUs.

CJB
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SirLena




Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Posts: 8



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ra [Login to view extended thread Info.]

I have been doing a lot of reading about E85. I have an OEM FFV (2008 F150) and an aftermarket converted FFV (1998 Taurus). The aftermarket kit I used, I got from Fuel Flex International thru http://www.flexfuelmyride.com. My brother will be converting his Harley this spring. He also bought a kit and is truely excited to be burning Made in USA fuel.

It's myth, that it affects our food. Foodgrade corn is NOT used to make Ethanol. Plus, they only use the sugar in it and the protien is made into distillers grains. That is then used as a high protien feed for livestock.

Ethanol produces 5-10% more power and that info is from the OEMs themselves. And if they actually tuned an engine to run on E85, it would probably produce even more power. Ask the Indy 500 why they are using E100 for racing fuel. Yes you have to burn more of it, but there are more vapor molecules per stroke than in reg gasoline. Your gas mileage degredation may be 10-15% but some midgrade blends can increase MPG (like E20, E30). Anyway, that is why E85 should be priced cheaper. Most states have more than an 18% difference in price. And when you compare it to premium, it's even more difference.

Brazil has been using Ethanol for 20 years without significant issues on regular cars and trucks. That's where the first conversion kits came from.

If Ethanol was so damaging to an engine, why then is the nozzle the same size? Remember unleaded vs. leaded gas nozzles? That's just another myth about engine damage. Auto manufacture's have never been concerned with metal fatigue, only rubber degredation. That's why vehicles built after 1986 no longer use rubber fuel lines. Plus, reg gasoline is also corrosive. Nobody ever talks about that. Gasoline AND Ethanol producers both put anti-corrosive chemicals in the fuel.

Ethanol is here to stay. You will see more stations every year. They doubled the stations from 2006 to 2007, so there are over 1200 of them. I expect they will double that again in 2008.

Don't believe the myths. Think about who is propagating them. Big Foriegn Oil, cuz they don't wanna lose business and Auto Industry cuz they want to sell you a new vehicle, not have you convert your old one.
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My Name Is Nobody

External


Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 225



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>autos>ford (more info?)

"agenthandyman" wrote in message

On Jan 3, 11:54 pm, "CJB" wrote:
> "Jeff" wrote in message
>
>
>
> > Denton wrote:
> >> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol
> >> blend
> >> be used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel
> >> milage than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power,
> >> and it is supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.
>
> > It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
> > actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do), you
> > won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much. The
> > only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
> > busy highway.
>
> I'm not sure too many people understand the whole point of the "more
> power"
> potential of E-85. E-85 is something in the neighborhood of 105 octane,
> iirc. The only way to take advantage of high octane like that is to have a
> higher compression engine. The problem there is that none are on the
> market
> today. If someone built a high compression engine, then it wouldn't be
> backward compatible with standard gasoline. There is no real power
> advantage that I know of in any engine in production today because they
> just
> don't have the high compression to take advantage of the higher octane of
> E-85.
>
> Long story short, while E-85 does have the POTENTIAL to produce more
> power,
> it will not unless engines are specifically designed to take advantage of
> it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your current engine will
> benefit power-wise from E-85. The opposite is true because E-85 burns with
> fewer BTUs.
>
> CJB

>I agree with all the points AGAINST E85... Not only does its
>production cause as much, or more harm as hydrogen does to the
>environment, but It can actually be more harmful to your engine than
>traditional gasoline, due to it's higher octane rating. With most


What higher temperatures? How dose "higher octane rating" equal higher
temperatures?
The only thing a higher octane fuel does is raise the compression ratio that
the fuel can be compressed to before it spontaneously ignites. It does not
physically raise the compression ratio of your engine or make any other
changes per se, at least not as a function of octane rating.


>modern engines being largely aluminum... the higher temps can actually
>cause issues with seal degredation and metal fatigue. The best choice
>for an alternative fuel, in my opinion, would be bio-diesel. Granted,
>bio-diesel production requires alcohols, but in much lower quanties
>and it is much more engine and environmentally friendly.

Unless the temperatures drop below freezing...

The trucks that were out of commission were being fueled with B-99, it's
a mix of 1% petroleum diesel and 99% biodiesel.
As temperatures cool below 40o, that B-99 will solidify and become
jelly-like, and vehicles can't run off it.
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_112707_news_water_bureau_bio...sel_tru
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Bruce L. Bergman

External


Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 293



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:16:29 GMT, "My Name Is Nobody" wrote:
>"agenthandyman" wrote...
>On Jan 3, 11:54 pm, "CJB" wrote:
>> "Jeff" wrote...
>> > Denton wrote:

>> >> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol
>> >> blend
>> >> be used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less fuel
>> >> milage than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more power,
>> >> and it is supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.
>>
>> > It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
>> > actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do), you
>> > won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much. The
>> > only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
>> > busy highway.
>>
>> I'm not sure too many people understand the whole point of the "more
>> power"
>> potential of E-85. E-85 is something in the neighborhood of 105 octane,
>> iirc. The only way to take advantage of high octane like that is to have a
>> higher compression engine. The problem there is that none are on the
>> market
>> today. If someone built a high compression engine, then it wouldn't be
>> backward compatible with standard gasoline. There is no real power
>> advantage that I know of in any engine in production today because they
>> just
>> don't have the high compression to take advantage of the higher octane of
>> E-85.
>>
>> Long story short, while E-85 does have the POTENTIAL to produce more
>> power,
>> it will not unless engines are specifically designed to take advantage of
>> it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your current engine will
>> benefit power-wise from E-85. The opposite is true because E-85 burns with
>> fewer BTUs.

There's the point - Indy car engines run on Ethanol and produce gobs
of power, but they have higher compression engines to make the best
use of it - your car doesn't. If you build an engine to be dual-fuel,
they can't raise the compression too much or it won't run on gasoline
properly.

>>I agree with all the points AGAINST E85... Not only does its
>>production cause as much, or more harm as hydrogen does to the
>>environment, but It can actually be more harmful to your engine than
>>traditional gasoline, due to it's higher octane rating. With most

The production is the real problem - we need to get moving on
perfecting cellulosic ethanol production to use "waste" for feedstock,
so food stocks like corn stay food, not fuel.

>What higher temperatures? How dose "higher octane rating" equal higher
>temperatures?
>The only thing a higher octane fuel does is raise the compression ratio that
>the fuel can be compressed to before it spontaneously ignites. It does not
>physically raise the compression ratio of your engine or make any other
>changes per se, at least not as a function of octane rating.

Engines running on alcohol don't run hotter, they don't release as
much heat into the block. Not sure how, it's something chemical in
the combustion process of an alcohol.

>>modern engines being largely aluminum... the higher temps can actually
>>cause issues with seal degredation and metal fatigue. The best choice
>>for an alternative fuel, in my opinion, would be bio-diesel. Granted,
>>bio-diesel production requires alcohols, but in much lower quanties
>>and it is much more engine and environmentally friendly.
>
>Unless the temperatures drop below freezing...
>
> The trucks that were out of commission were being fueled with B-99, it's
>a mix of 1% petroleum diesel and 99% biodiesel.
> As temperatures cool below 40o, that B-99 will solidify and become
>jelly-like, and vehicles can't run off it.
> http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_112707_news_water_bureau_bio...sel_tru

We've known about that problem for a long time - and in milder
climates they need to go to a winter blend with a much higher
petroleum diesel percentage

In the snow belt they need to either have the trucks plugged in
overnight to electric fuel heaters in the tanks and right before the
injection pump...

Or go to a two-tank fuel system, where they start and run the
engines on 100% Diesel till the engine reaches operating temperature
and the coolant can warm the B99 fuel in the second tank to a liquid,
then you switch over. And you switch back before shutdown, so the
fuel in the rails and injectors is petroleum diesel and won't jell up.

But the two-fuels strategy takes an educated and thoughtful vehicle
operator - an employee with an ulterior motive might "forget" to
switch the truck over properly before parking it on Thursday evening,
so on Friday morning he can go "Oops, my truck won't start - guess I
have to go home..."

Yeah, home via the local ski slope. Wink Instant 3-day weekend.

That's why corporate fleets spend a lot more on the Allison HD
automatics to get away from stick-shift trucks - it's just too easy to
"accidentally" pop the clutch, snap an axle shaft or U-joint, and get
the rest of the day off.

--<< Bruce >>--
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C. E. White1

External


Since: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 727



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jeff" wrote in message

> Denton wrote:

> The problem with the ethanol blend is that it takes almost as much energy
> to make a gallon of ethanol as there is in a gallon of ethanol. Plus, all
> the corn that can be used for other things, like food, is used up.

You are neglecting the fact, that the mash left over after the alcohol is
produced is a very good animal feed. Most corn already is used for animal
fed, and when used as such, it must be processed (ground up) before it is
fed. Using corn to make alcohol only affects the carbohydrate content, the
residue of the alcohol process is the sort of high protein feed you need for
meat production.

Ed
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C. E. White1

External


Since: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 727



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:10 pm
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jeff" wrote in message


> .... just as using hydrogen is harmful, because of all the energy it takes
> to make hydrogen and all the CO2 that ends up in the air.

You can make hydrogen using renewable sources of power (solar / wind / tidal
/ geothermal / etc) or nuclear.

Ed
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CJB

External


Since: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 83



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:00 am
Post subject: Re: E85 conversion kit for 2006 focus and 2007 4 cylinder Ranger? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message

> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:16:29 GMT, "My Name Is Nobody" wrote:
>>"agenthandyman" wrote...
>>On Jan 3, 11:54 pm, "CJB" wrote:
>>> "Jeff" wrote...
>>> > Denton wrote:
>
>>> >> I live in Oregon...and this state has mandated some form of gasahol
>>> >> blend
>>> >> be used, starting this year...year around. Although E85 gets less
>>> >> fuel
>>> >> milage than pure gasoline, it also is capable of producing more
>>> >> power,
>>> >> and it is supposed to cost less per gallon than pure gas.
>>>
>>> > It gets less fuel mileage but produces more power? Gee, unless you
>>> > actually run your engine at full power (which most of us rarely do),
>>> > you
>>> > won't notice a difference. Even then, the difference won't be much.
>>> > The
>>> > only time I run my engine at full power is during acceleration on to a
>>> > busy highway.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure too many people understand the whole point of the "more
>>> power"
>>> potential of E-85. E-85 is something in the neighborhood of 105 octane,
>>> iirc. The only way to take advantage of high octane like that is to have
>>> a
>>> higher compression engine. The problem there is that none are on the
>>> market
>>> today. If someone built a high compression engine, then it wouldn't be
>>> backward compatible with standard gasoline. There is no real power
>>> advantage that I know of in any engine in production today because they
>>> just
>>> don't have the high compression to take advantage of the higher octane
>>> of
>>> E-85.
>>>
>>> Long story short, while E-85 does have the POTENTIAL to produce more
>>> power,
>>> it will not unless engines are specifically designed to take advantage
>>> of
>>> it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your current engine will
>>> benefit power-wise from E-85. The opposite is true because E-85 burns
>>> with
>>> fewer BTUs.
>
> There's the point - Indy car engines run on Ethanol and produce gobs
> of power, but they have higher compression engines to make the best
> use of it - your car doesn't. If you build an engine to be dual-fuel,
> they can't raise the compression too much or it won't run on gasoline
> properly.


Yes, exactly the point I made, if you scroll up. Existing engines will not
take advantage of the *potential* power increase benefit of E-85, and no one
is likely to build an e-85 tuned engine for consumer use because it's not
going to be backward compatible to standard gasoline.

There is nothing but performance LOSS when you use E-85 in a currently
configured internal combustion engine.

I snipped a lot of what was said about it, but I have to say that I truly
believe that diesel, and biodiesel in particular are a MUCH better solution.
I recently saw a bumpersticker on a diesel Jetta or Beetle that said, "50MPG
and No Silly Batteries!" I think that's the long term answer. Much more
efficient a process and more power than ethanol.

CJB
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